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TOTALLY FUCKING OFFENSIVE (this exchange happened on spirit day)

SORRY TRANS OR NONBINARY PEOPLE. YOU DON'T EXIST. LOL.

Sorry, everyone that was congratulating DA for changing their banner to purple. You were being lied to.

They aren't going to fix the lack of a third gender option, they don't plan on it. It's not a mistake like livejournal's was.

If you don't support trans or genderqueer or nonbinary people but you support homosexuality you need to go fuck right off right now.
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:iconkiteshiro:
KiteShiro Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
deviantART is full of open opinions and representation. Stirring up a ruckus is probably the simplest and most direct way of bringing equal representation to the LGBTQ community and its artists. Rally up your journals, fire up those tablets. Want to make this site better for its members? Show them a reason.
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:iconlostkeyproductions:
LostKeyProductions Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
I agree thats just not cool. but whats nonbinary?
need education badly -__-
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
outside of the female/male idea of gender. Either somewhere in between or no gender identity at all.
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:iconlostkeyproductions:
LostKeyProductions Featured By Owner Nov 8, 2010
Thank you so much. I had never heard that term before
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:icondronster:
Dronster Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I just read this...
I couldn't stop laughing, This is stupid on a level I have Rarely seen before.
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:iconmordormaster277:
mordormaster277 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
Ugh. Completely agreed. In the old days, I recall my gender wasn't listed on my page. I wish it were still like that, since personally I just don't think my gender should have anything to do with my art (provided I actually post some art one of these days).
The only way around it is to NOT HAVE UPDATED YOUR PROFILE SINCE THE SWITCH. It's stupid. Some people don't want their sex posted, not just because they might be transgendered/gender queer, but simply because it's a matter of privacy. And saying DA isn't 'obligated' to change it is just silly; the option was there before, so why on earth couldn't they bring it back if there's all this flap about it?

Don't get me started on FB.
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
There was the option to hide it, but then your stats page would refer to you as he or she. And you could have hidden that, too. But I think that's pretty crap. It's like you have less options because you don't think your gender has anything to do with your art? How fucked up is that?

It's like a punishment. I mean, a pretty small one, sure, but it's there.
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:icontestflight:
TestFlight Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
Apparently some staff are going to rectify this? Maybe?

[link]

In which case, yay!
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
I think they have by now. Someone said the third choice was back. Hooray!
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:icontestflight:
TestFlight Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010
Yay!
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:iconnitrusoxide:
NitrusOxide Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
I'm just surprised everyone is so surprised. I mean, for the most part I find deviantart convenient and all, and I doubt I'd leave (unless there was someplace better) but I really never had any pride or faith in the website or those who run it. I feel like DA is more of a tool to use to communicate and share artwork than an all encompassing community. I mean, it seems a lot of the polls and news and featured deviations and popular deviations are utterly mindless. I mean, sometimes they do feature really awesome work, but I also see a lot of generic, simple, sexualized BS on there as well.
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
Is anyone surprised? Mostly I see people saying they're not surprised. Definitely not me. I've been on this site since 2003. It's kind of always been like this with the mods. I usually try to stay out of shit like that, though, because you know. It's not generally worth it to argue over how to best run a site, but about something like this... I do feel the need to be upset a bit and argue a bit.

I see it as a privacy issue, so it's a little more important, I think, than bitching about art theft or the categories being worthless or whatever gets picked for DDs.
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:iconnitrusoxide:
NitrusOxide Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2010
Well, I'd seen quite a few people who seemed pretty shocked by it, but eh. I mean, that's definitely a bitch, though. Although I have heard there are some bad art theft problems, though it's not really relevant to me. Not much to say. That's DA for you, I guess.
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:iconmelhelix:
Melhelix Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Well, I just went to my settings, and it seems the "other" option has been added to the sex menu. I switched mine to test, and it seems to be displaying properly with "their" being used as the pronoun on stats and such. So, at least they managed to slightly de-cluster**** it.
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:iconkrishva:
krishva Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
You know, the thing that made me the most angry was how the staff responded to the complaint. There are a lot of other, less offensive responses that could have been made:

- "Hey, you're right, this forced binary shows disregard for a portion of DA's userbase. Someone wasn't thinking when this choice was made. Let me talk to the higher-ups about putting 'unspecified' back as an option."
- "You're right, but there is some important infrastructure reason why the admins made this choice. I'll forward your complaint and hopefully we can figure out something to do about it."
- "Unfortunately there's nothing we can do about this due to the reason the change was made, inflexible higher-ups, or extremely busy coding staff, but we acknowledge this is a completely valid complaint, and you are 100% justified in being pissed off. We are really sorry and we hope you decide to stick around anyway."

Any response that acknowledged the feelings of non-binary-gendered people as valid would have been nice. Everyone on staff who responded to this complaint really shoved their foot in it by patronizing and mocking a person who was upset enough to complain about the option being removed. Just acknowledging the complaint as reasonable would have gone a long way in this situation.
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
yes, exactly. A lot of people are boohooing about the way the complaints were worded, but it is not up to the complainer to be civil and professional. It's up to the professional to be professional.

(although, honestly, I thought they were very civil about the whole thing. More so than I would have been)

How hard is it not to shoot a flippant, condescending reply to a complain ticket? Apparently very hard!

I'm glad this is actually being resolved, though. Hope, yet!
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:iconkrishva:
krishva Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Have the DA staff actually apologized to the user in question? Because that's what I really want to see. Adding back the third gender option isn't much of an olive branch when that's the most minor of all the transgressions involved in this dispute.
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Student Digital Artist
I don't know. I would hope so.
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:iconsummercen:
Summercen Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I just get so confused by all of the terms and labels and everything anymore, I don't even know.

At this point, I've given up trying. People are what they are and if I don't know what you want to be, then you're going to be "Hey, you!" until I get a name. Once I have something to call you then I really do not even give a fuck what you do in or out of your pants.

But seriously, dA. It's bad enough on its own but the fact that they pulled this shit on Spirit Day pisses me off even more. Unless they start turning shit around I feel like this site may be teetering on the edge of its way out.
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
Aw this site's always been kinda not run great, but what can you do? It's the site where you're most likely to get feedback and exposure. :/

But, it's also a very very very large and busy site, so I can understand a bit some of the terrible goings on. I would just think a complaint like this would be handled better.

Like, in call centers, complaints have severity tiers. A ticket about discrimination would probably get bumped up a couple managers and actually handled with care.

There's never any need to worry about what to call someone. Most people are okay with correcting you once if need be.

Although, I guess in person it can get a bit more grating if you're getting mistaken for something else. Especially for cisgenders, hahah.

The only time it is not cool is if someone is being a deliberate dick about it.
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:iconsummercen:
Summercen Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I know, probably one of the only reasons I'm still around. That and some of the people on here like you are genuinely pretty awesome.

I don't know if you've seen this yet or not but...progress?
[link]
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:iconinterloperux:
InterloperUX Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I think "they" are being a bit oversensitive =/ I couldn't read all of it because I was just too 'ugh.' DeviantART is a private website and they're under no obligation to pander to a minority. True, it would be nice if they acknowledged a difference, it may be offensive to those within that minority, but.. well, you can't expect them to pander to every single minority out there to make sure none of them feel slighted.

I don't know. I do understand what its like to be a misunderstood alien, but I adjusted. The world won't change for one person. All you can do is change yourself.
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:iconchasmosaur:
chasmosaur Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2010
You sound like my mom.
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:iconkrishva:
krishva Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
To be honest, the problem is less with the removal of the option and more with how the staff treated a person who was honestly upset that it was removed. If they really couldn't do anything about the issue, there was still the option of acknowledging the complaint and apologizing, instead of belittling this person for daring to express a different gender identity.
deviantART muro drawingComment Drawing
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:iconinterloperux:
InterloperUX Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Fair point, but I see no reason for blaming the staff, and the company as a whole, for some bad manners on the part of some of its representatives. As is evident, those in charge are smart enough to know when to change their policy.
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:iconkrishva:
krishva Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I will happily blame the staff and/or company policy, thanks. Multiple staff members dealt with this user, and all of them were dismissive, even mocking, of their actual complaint, even as the user made clear that the issue was not resolved and the behavior of the staff members was insulting. No one was in any rush to apologize for anything or take any action until other DA users raised a stink and made clear that treating someone disrespectfully because of their gender identity is wrong. Just as wrong as bullying someone for being gay.
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:iconinterloperux:
InterloperUX Featured By Owner Nov 5, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm not disputing that its wrong. Maybe *I'm* being too oversensitive. I'm tired of seeing people whining over petty things. ..Which is why I'm going to end my reply here, lest I slip into the same error. We disagree, so be it.
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:iconkrishva:
krishva Featured By Owner Nov 6, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I just don't think it's petty to not want the paid staff of an organization to insult and patronize you.

I don't think this would have ever become a big stink if the staff members--any of them--had treated the user in question with respect and acknowledged their actual complaint, regardless of what the final outcome was with regards to the site's gender options. There is a conceivable alternate timeline in which nothing in the site was changed, but the user went away, maybe not happy, but at least satisfied that their complaint had been adequately and appropriately addressed.
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
Then I guess I am being over sensitive! How awful of me.

Whatever, you can feel that way, doesn't change how I feel.

And yes, private website blah blah blah, but it is being run like a professional business. I believe they have offices and everything. It's in their best interest not to piss off portions of their userbase by removing options that were already there.

It's not pandering, it's regression.

The world won't change if people decide to hush up and stop making a fuss.
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:iconinterloperux:
InterloperUX Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I agree. As is evident, the issue escalated into something that affected enough people to warrant dA making an effort. Obviously whoever made the regressive change was ignorant.. but I wouldn't blame them too much. I've never met anyone, in person, that claimed to be an 'it.' I doubt many have.

As far as that journal, it just looked like one lone person with an issue, wanting the whole world to change to adjust to their difference. Noone listens to the lone man on the soapbox, but if he draws a crowd, then people pay attention.
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:iconinterloperux:
InterloperUX Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
P.S. How does it deal with other aspects of regular life where they're forced to declare either male or female? Drivers licence? Pretty much any registration? It must get tough being angry at everyone all the time.
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
Feels great. >:P
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:icondragontrap:
dragontrap Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Professional General Artist
The way someone explained the whole 'gender' option on DA, it's simply there so they know what ads to shove in your face (even though a good percentage of non-subscribers use an AD blocker anyway). But yes, it's rather stupid that DA is acting like this, and letting the mods continue on with rude behavior/speech (but then again, they are not the most adept bunch of people to begin with).
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:iconkaster-chan:
Kaster-chan Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
As a genderqueer!Female this both saddens and enrages me...mostly rage though...
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:iconthedarknight0333:
TheDarkNight0333 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
I'm confused as to why "Hermaphrodite" would be offensive. It may not seem like the most socially-common label, but you wouldn't take offense if someone called you a mammal, now would you?
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
Mammal is an accurate statement, but hermaphrodite isn't.

Hermaphrodite is a medical condition where you're born with both sets of genitals. It's not applicable. So, yes, it's a little offensive.
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:iconthedarknight0333:
TheDarkNight0333 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
People can be born as hermaphrodites, though.

I don't agree with the moderator, obviously, as he was only considering physical gender, but in the context of his argument (the implied argument being that only physical gender matters), hermaphrodite was a perfectly accurate statement for what he was referencing: Someone who is both genders. There aren't any groups I can think of off the top of my head that might be considered both physically and take offense to being termed a hermaphrodite. The only other common (relatively) physical sexual deviancy would be a transgendered individual, who would, I think, identify as their new gender. Is that not the point of the surgery, to become the new gender and thus identify as such?
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:iconxtheauthoressx:
XTheAuthoressX Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
I would like to point out that, being bigendered and identifying as both, yet I would take offense to hermaphrodite because hermaphrodite is no longer ever used in a kind context. Ever. Does that help any with your confusion?
deviantART muro drawingComment Drawing
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
It's an out of date term for a medical condition that has nothing to do with nonbinary gender roles.

It's innacurate. It was being tossed out there in a joking, derogatory way by the moderator. That's why it's offensive.
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:iconnozomigakanau:
nozomigakanau Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
"If you don't support trans or genderqueer or nonbinary people but you support homosexuality you need to go fuck right off right now."

Word word word
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
I probably could have said that a bit more eloquently, but I'm afraid strong feelings and eloquence rarely mix.
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:iconnozomigakanau:
nozomigakanau Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
No, that was exactly perfect.
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:iconrighteous-b:
Righteous-B Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
(Someone's bound to hate me for saying this, but) am I the only one who thinks that the dA staff aren't the only ones at fault?
I mean, sure, they screwed up pretty bad in terms of handling that, but seriously?
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:iconpuddum:
Puddum Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Ah god I can't even read all that. After the mod's first two responses I am just... I can't even... THERE NO WORDS. Dx
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
I shouldn't have read it, since it's kind of been giving me anxiety attacks all day. Oh well, I guess. :/
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:iconhiccoughing:
hiccoughing Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010   Writer
Why not just make the gender option a textbox instead of a dropdown?
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:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
the biggest guess is that the gender options are being used as data for ad targetting. So they want info that's useable. And I think a lot of people would write jokes next to a box wherein the prompt is 'sex:'

Which, I'm fine with, who cares. But yeah, not useable as ad data.
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:iconmare-of-night:
mare-of-night Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
They changed it from gender to sex, which is even worse IMO... since with transgender at least it's saying check what you feel like.

My friend says she thinks they want to know gender for advertising reasons. I think it's also possible they have it stored as a binary variable in the code, which would make it a lot trickier to add a third option. At any rate, their public relations was fail.
Reply
:iconnightmarehound:
NightmareHound Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010
[link] Oh look, they address the issue by missing the point completely.
Reply
:iconevilengine9:
evilengine9 Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2010  Student Digital Artist
I don't know, the second gender option for profile purposes sounds promising. I'll wait and see. Personally, I just want to keep gender off of my profile entirely. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
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